The following is a combination of three conversations/interviews that Zhanargul Zhumatai, a Kazakh singer and media producer from Urumqi who spent over 2 years in detention, had with people outside of China around the 2022-2023 New Year period, prior to being redetained. The first is a 2-hour phone conversation with Kazakh activist Serikzhan Bilash (in Kazakh), the second is a short phone conversation with anthropologist Rune Steenberg (in Uyghur and Kazakh), and the third is a more formal interview given by Zhanargul to Radio Taiwan International (in Mandarin Chinese), with Serikzhan as a technical intermediary. All happened within a few days of each other, with the translated transcripts provided here in chronological order.

Conversation with Serikzhan Bilash

Serikzhan Bilash: Hello Zhanar, how are you?

Zhanargul Zhumatai: Good.

S: We’ve read what you wrote on a website in Kazakhstan. We wanted to know how you’re doing. Your number was posted there as well. We’re contacting you after seeing your contact details on the website.

Z: I see. Thank you.

S: Hmm…

Z: Whom am I speaking to?

S: My name is Serik and we’re contacting you from America. We would like to know if we could help you.

Z (sighing): A guy has just contacted me. A guy from there.

S: That was me.

Z: I gave Lazzat Ongarqyzy Zhumagulova’s phone number.

S: We texted Lazzat but couldn’t reach her. I wrote to you asking to contact Lazzat.

Z: Lazzat is sometimes eager to talk, but sometimes isn’t. This is partly because she had a concussion. This is one of the reasons for her [current] situation.

S: Hmm…

Z: There is a guy named Galym Ulkenbai. He has the audio and video files that I gave to him.

S: Hmm…

Z: Including the difficulties I’ve faced here, [about] my relatives, the numerous excuses – I gave all these to him. Because I know that they will not admit it despite it being declared to the world.

S: Hmm. So now…

Z: So in order for them to not be able to find excuses to deny it…

S: Now… The information about you has been officially published on Kazakhstan websites. The entire world can see it, including the Chinese embassy in Kazakhstan and the various people who work for them. Your letter has already reached the Chinese side. 

Z: It has.

S: It’s been about a day since it was published. They are not pressuring or threatening you?

Z: They’ve come to my place and said that I wrote such a letter, asking if I knew those people and saying that they were worried that those people might be bad people. They asked if the letter was written by myself or by them. I said that I wrote it. I wrote about my experiences. You are aware of what you are doing to me, I told them. With the reputation of the country and government in mind, I put up with it for 5 years, I said. But who will pity me? Who will care about me? All they know is corruption, getting rid of the people who know the truth. Not even a grain of rice escapes their scrutiny.

They can arrest you arbitrarily, so I took my mom outside. Since the whole world already knows about this, let them detain me in front of others if they’re going to detain me, I thought. I’m completely out of patience now. I’ve decided that the entire world should know this.

I wanted to go in, but they locked the door after seeing me. The door is supposed to remain open always, ever since the COVID restrictions have been lifted. I did manage to enter, but with effort.

S: By “door”, do you mean the gate to the residential complex?

Z: The door to the residential complex.

S: I see.

Z: That’s how far they’re willing to go…

You don’t know the torture I’ve experienced. I ask for help from the entire world, the UN Human Rights Office, international organizations… My family has to provide me with food and clothing. I don’t have any other way to get by. I’m tired of asking them to give me a job, let me work, not stand in my way. There hasn’t been any help or sympathy towards me, and it only keeps getting worse. I cry everywhere I go, as they treat me like a dog. Even for the tiniest of matters, they don’t give permission. They threaten my family. They come in with firearms.

Last night, they contacted me to ask what I was doing and if I was at home. I said I was at home. They asked who else was in the house. I said I was with my mom. Then they stopped contacting me. They are watching everything. I’ve given the audio and video materials to the guy named Galym Ulkenbai at Khabar TV. There was also a girl named Almagul, who had worked for me, and I’ve given her all the documents, including what I’ve written to the relevant government bodies and to Chen Quanguo, as well as their responses. Also, the Urumqi County government’s actions, how many places I’ve contacted, etc., as evidence. I plead for help from the Kazakhstani people, from international society, and from the entire world. I don’t have other options.

S: Let me say something. We’ve rescued thousands of Kazakh people whose rights have been trampled like yours. We’re the international human rights organization that you mentioned. The whole world knows us. The UN, the US, Europe… all know about us. You’ve written in your letter that you spent 2 years and 23 days in the No. 2 and No. 3 prisons in Urumqi?

Z: Yes, of course. I haven’t said anything [that wasn’t true]…

S: We will act to rescue you. I’m recording the audio call with you. I’ve also translated the basic situation as you’ve described it in your letter, and sent it to the people close to the American Congress, the relevant people in the UN, the UN Human Rights Committee, and other international human rights organizations. It’s the middle of the night in the US now. It’s 3:10 AM in the US now. December 30. Around 8-9 hours ago, I translated and sent them everything. What I want to ask you now is…

Z: Thank you.

S: I would like to ask – if foreign human rights organizations contact you directly via the phone number you’ve provided, or visit you at your address, would you change your mind and say that what you had said earlier was false, as a result of pressure or threats by the Chinese government?

Z: No, I won’t deny what I said. I told them yesterday that I had not said anything, in order to protect the reputation of the country. I repeated it many times. I said to them on WeChat that a good word said with good intention is more valuable than gold. What else can I do if you don’t understand that, I asked? I have no choice but to step up and act. I don’t want to just die like this, I want for the whole world to know about it. I told them that I had already talked about it many times and wasn’t afraid. I haven’t committed any crime. Everyone knows that. I also said that I had files with evidence of their threats, and that I had given them to the relevant people.

I’m fed up. I had tried my best to protect the honor of the country as a citizen of the People’s Republic of China. I sacrificed my health and myself to protect it. But who has protected me? Did the government protect me? They’re busy protecting the rich and corrupt. Who has protected me? I didn’t come to this world to whitewash their wrongdoings. I will stick with this. I won’t give up.

However, when the delegations from the UN and other countries came before, there were policemen with them. Police cars would surround them and they’d come in a police car. If I heard them come and wanted to approach them, the police would warn me by honking. To say that I should control myself or be punished.

I didn’t want to do all this. I tried my best. But I couldn’t bear it any more. If the people from the UN, the international community, and human rights organizations come here, and China lets them in without hindering them, then they can meet me. I won’t be changing my mind, not unless they do something to me or my health. Because I know what the future looks like.

S: There might be some news you haven’t heard, being in China. Let me tell you. There is a woman. Not Kazakh. She is another ethnicity, also from your region, and she got Egyptian citizenship. She didn’t give up and protested. She had spent a year or two in prison in China, and one of her three children was murdered in prison because she was not allowed to feed the baby. Finally, she and her two kids were rescued with the help of the Egyptian ambassador. We’ve already contacted the international organizations, so you just need to endure all the threats, lies, and deception from the Chinese.

Look, it’s 3 in the morning, right after New Year’s Day. There are people in Beijing, Shanghai, the ambassadors of different countries in China, journalists of various well-known newspapers… There are 50 American journalists in China and 50 Chinese journalists in America, let’s say. They negotiate it like that. The Chinese assign assistants to those journalists. They might contact you now. They will ask to go to your address, the one written in your letter – in Urumqi, Saybagh District, etc. – and see you. If you endure all the way to the end, you’ll escape.

Z: Please let them come and see me and what my current situation is like. They [authorities] might kill me like this. I’ll welcome them in my house unless they [authorities] give me some sort of medicine to make me go insane so that they can tell them I’m dumb.

S: I’d like to share another bit of information. There are hundreds of thousands of people who’ve been detained like you and were able to escape with the help of the international community. But China doesn’t let you know these things and so you don’t know about them. Numerous people have been released. There was a person who had been imprisoned for 16 years before being sent to camp, and then finally met his family after 18 years. His wife and son in Kazakhstan didn’t give up. Instead, they fearlessly talked to different journalists and others, and with their help, the Chinese government had no choice but to release him. Now he’s in Kazakhstan. There are numerous such cases. Countless.

Z: I’ve endured this all thinking that this is my hometown and thinking that things would change. I talked about this in the video and audio materials I’ve provided. I implored them to show some sympathy, as we’re all people. All that people really need is something to eat and a bed to sleep in, no? I asked why they were doing this. I could’ve spoken up about this earlier, as I have somewhat important acquaintances who could have helped raise my issue. But I didn’t do it, thinking of our motherland’s reputation. I’ve told them this. But they’ve gotten used to threatening and trampling on people.

If you open your mouth, they just go and threaten your family. They search your house in the middle of the night, equipped with firearms. They removed pictures of Abai. We couldn’t hang his picture in our house. He’s a prominent Kazakh poet. How dare they? They’ve really gone too far. The secretary of Urumqi County, a certain Taolin, and another guy… it’s them who always send people to me. They ask me why I went to Kazakhstan to study, hoping that I tell them that I was there to study “something else”. I’ve repeated the same answer – that I went there just to study, and haven’t committed any crime. I’ve also said that I explained all this to the police. The Saybagh District political and legal affairs commission, the police station, the municipal police station…

S: Hello…? Hello? I’ve lost you.

[inaudible]

S: Could you talk about your two years of camp life? Why and when were you detained? You said that they lied to you and called you back. Were you staying in Kazakhstan with a residence permit?

Z: I don’t really know you. What’s your name?

S: My name is Serik.

Z: I’m afraid that those people are doing this.

S: No, don’t worry.

Z: They have various tactics.

S: Let me tell you something.

Z: Sorry?

S: Have you heard of your letter being published on a website in Kazakhstan?

Z: I have.

S: Your phone number, that you had been detained for two years, even your address and photos have been published. You’ve heard of this?

Z: I haven’t seen that.

S: It was published by abai.kz, with the title “A Letter from Xinjiang”. Have you heard of that?

Z: I have. However…

S: This means that your phone number is out there and your situation has been published. What I want to say is that we’re not here to help threaten you. Your situation has already been published and everyone knows about it. Did you stay at a camp for 2 years and 23 days, or 26 days?

Z: 2 years and 23 days. Let me start at the beginning. In 2020, in Urumqi County… I’m from Baiyanggou Village, Tomurti Municipality, Urumqi County. I’m a daughter of a herder. We had land, pastureland. In 2010, there was a scandal – the government took the land to build a reservoir, but gave nothing in return. Well, they gave 108RMB in return, and then raised it to 308RMB after the backlash.

The elderly in the village were really disappointed, and asked if there was anyone educated around. So I wrote to the relevant government bodies, along with two other people. We wrote to the regional Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, the financial bureau, the grasslands department, the bureau of land resources, and the like. The judicial bureau took note of it and said that I was right. We asked how the herders’ land could be so cheap while other things were getting so expensive. We also noted that the policies were too confusing, with no unified documents.

They ended up voiding the No. 3 Document that had been issued in 1999, and used Document 2679 instead. Later, I received a letter where my name was mentioned first, and which also had such officials as Nurlan Abilmazhin, Erkin Omerbaqi, and Ablet Abdureshit. They then gave 960RMB. Except that the real cost of the land was around 15000RMB. They would hate me for increasing the herders’ compensation, while the people loved me and praised me as their hero. The officials in Urumqi became my enemies. As a result, my family asked me not to bring this up anymore. So, I stopped.

In 2017, I was working in the cultural domain. I have worked with China National Radio and have done other work with such government bodies as the Cultural Bureau. I’ve been awarded for my work.

I needed to visit Almaty and went there on September 9, coming back on September 14 since the Saybagh District Culture Department asked me to return as soon as possible.

Before that, officials from Tomurti had taken our property ownership certificate and land certificate for verification. They took them back in 2016. My dad was ill, and they said that they needed to enter it into the computer system. I went there to ask for the documents in around July 2017. When I did, I found that they had removed 17 square meters from our land. I asked them why they did and had an argument with them over it. I refused to accept the new documents, instead taking the old ones and leaving.

When I got a major award, they asked me what I wanted to do next for the people, and if I had any ideas on how to provide people with entrepreneurial opportunities. I said that I would open a restaurant on the land I had, using the farmland next to it to grow green products and then use them at the restaurant while employing the locals. I would like to grow the village’s economy by attracting tourists, I said. Everyone praised my ideas and asked me if I had talked to the officials in my village. I told them that I hadn’t yet.

When I did meet them, they initially said that it was a good idea, but refused after seeing my documents and finding out that I was the one who had written the appeal and had argued about the land certificate. I visited them many times, but they never approved it, always finding excuses. Finally, I sent them a short message saying that we should all go our own ways, and left it at that. The way they understood it was that I was going to appeal again, and decided to get me imprisoned.

They told my relatives that I should go and apologize, officially and in written form, or be sent to study otherwise. I refused to apologize, saying that I hadn’t done anything wrong to merit an apology. My parents asked me to go. But I didn’t go there because I didn’t want to apologize.

Then I received a phone call from the Tianshan District police station. They said to me that my household registration was in their district and that they had good news for me. They said that I could now change my household registration to Tomurti, helping me with the procedure of acquiring land in the village. I didn’t have a choice but to go, because the situation at that point was a bit complicated. When I went to see them, they refused to move my registration to Tomurti, saying instead that they needed to re-register my apartment in the Saybagh District. When I didn’t want to do so, they forced me to change my registration.

That evening at the police station, they also checked my phone and said that I had Instagram and Facebook on there. I told them that I didn’t register accounts with any of those apps, and explained that they had already been installed on the phone when I got it in Almaty. The policeman then told me that he had uninstalled the apps, and told me not to use them. After that, two people took me to a room and locked me there, making me sign some documents and then taking me to the Tianshan District Public Security Bureau. There, they made me sign more documents, and then took me to the No. 3 Detention Center.

I was made to leave my fingerprints on various documents. When I said that I hadn’t done anything wrong and explained the reason for Facebook being there, the guy told me that I was on a list. The policeman said that he also felt bad for me, but that he didn’t have a choice, as my name was on a list, but did add that he could send over the relevant documents to prove my successful work history, after which I could try to explain my situation there [at the detention center].

Let me just focus on my situation. They took me to the No. 2 prison [detention center], and then back to the No. 3 prison [detention center]. They questioned me and said that they would investigate if there were any mistakes, coming back with any further questions if there were mistakes made, and closing this topic if not. But then they never came back. My condition worsened, as they kept me shackled and handcuffed.

S: When were you detained?

Z: They took me to the Dabancheng Transformation-Through-Education Center on March 2, 2018. I was locked up there. They called me on the 26th. It was the 27th when I got there.

S: Which year?

Z: On March 3, 2018, I went to Dabancheng. 47 people were taken to a labor camp on April 7. April 7, 2019. They took me to the reform-through-labor center on July 9, 2019. After a few months, on October 18, 2019, they released me, letting me return home. But I would have to sign documents every day. They were rude to me, and would question me all the time. I was so thin that I needed to go to the hospital, but they didn’t let me. They came after me when I did go to the hospital, and the doctors refused to treat me. I was really sick and vomiting and very thin, but the doctor said that I was okay. Despite them already knowing that I had a disease.

S: What was it?

Z: I couldn’t find a Russian translation. It was something in English. It appears when you have a deficiency of iodine – salt – in your body. We could not eat salt. They didn’t allow me to get checked, but I still found a way to because I was very ill, couldn’t eat, and I had to. My iodine level was 100, which meant that my situation had deteriorated. But when that doctor found out that I had been at a study center, he became very angry and refused to treat me. He kicked me out of the hospital. I had to use relatives’ ID cards to get the medicine needed to treat myself.

S: Which hospital was it that kicked you out?

Z: On July 2, 2020.

S: Which hospital?

Z: The Urumqi City Traditional Chinese Medicine Hospital.

S: The traditional Chinese medicine hospital on Huanghe Road?

Z: Yes. Doctor Luo Jun. Later, I wanted to get a certificate stating that I had a chronic illness. But I found out that on my medical record they did not mention my hypothyroidism problem. They wrote that I was suffering from some depression. I asked Doctor Luo Jun how he was able to diagnose that I had psychological problems, given how he was a gastroenterologist. Moreover, he didn’t even say this to me, saying only that he had no choice but to write it [on the form]. I told him that they were not abiding by doctors’ ethics, saying that doctors should not divide people into the good and the bad or criminals. They should follow the ethics of treating all people equally. But he said that he had to. He also said that he would be able to tell me my diagnosis when the time was right. Then I left.

They would question me daily, always hindering me from going out. They would ask what kinds of problems I had in the neighborhood. If I told them about my problems, they’d ignore them, berating me and saying that those were not problems at all. If I said I didn’t have any issues, they’d also pressure me, forcing me to tell them about my difficulties. They even told me that they would take me to the police station if I wasn’t honest with them about my problems. After all these experiences, my heartbeat is always so heavy, but the doctors won’t see me. Because they’ve informed the doctors about me.

S: What kinds of questions do they ask when they interrogate you at a police station? What is your crime, according to them?

Z: They ask me why I studied there.

S: They call the 2 years and 23 days a period of study, is that right?

Z: Yes, they do. They ask why I went to study.

S: You didn’t go to study on your own free will. It was them who detained you, wasn’t it?

Z: It was, and that’s what I told them. I also asked why they would come looking for me daily, weekly. I asked why it wasn’t enough to have made me study for 2 years and 23 days, and why even after they had to install GPS sensors in my house and keep carrying out visits. I told them that it was they who were creating problems. They already know what I do every day.

Once, I checked what was written on my profile while I was in study. It said that I had had a financial dispute with the Urumqi government. When they came to see me and forced me to admit my crime and wrongdoings, I cried and did not admit anything. Then they brought my files and showed me what was written there. They said that they understood my situation and asked me to admit my wrongdoings so that they could transfer 5 million RMB to my company’s account, after which I could continue operating my business. All the officials from the Saybagh District came and told me so. But later they all went quiet.

S: What did they want to give 5 million for?

Z: As a reward from the government for my contributions.

S: I see.

Z: They detained several people related to that incident. Corrupt officials. How to put it…? It’s when they just detain a few people temporarily and later release them. They used my appeal as the foundations to detain a few people. Then they sent different people to me to get the money. They would also say that there was a bid to win, and that I should work on it. I asked them how much I could earn. They said that I would not get any money from the government, but would be able to earn money by selling the tickets after the film was released. Another person would come and tell me that there was a certain budget allocated and that I could open a restaurant using that money. When I asked how much the funding would be, they said that I would not get the money, and would instead get marketing support. I don’t know if they already got that money or not.

S: I didn’t understand. 5 million is a big amount of money. Who will get that money and what for?

Z: There was an award for my company.

S: I don’t get it. Hold on.

Z: As support.

S: For your company?

Z: For my company, allocated to the Saybagh District Bureau of Finance. 

S: From where? Hold on. I want to ask something. Chinese Kazakhs have a strange way of speaking. They overuse words like “tusken” (“descend”, Chinese grammar influence of 下 expressions) and the like. I didn’t get it. Your company is a registered private company. Who is giving this money to your company? I mean, everyone has a company.

Z: I think this is the money allocated by the regional “xuanchuanbu” (宣传部). How to say “xuanchuanbu”?

S: Propaganda department.

Z: Yes, theirs.

S: Why did they give money to your company?

Z: I suspect that you’re contacting me from here [China]. I’ve already explained once that I don’t trust people. I am surrounded by bad people. They lie to you, deceive you, and put words in your mouth to use it against you. So I’ve stopped saying more than needed. I wrote a letter to Brother Auyt recently. I don’t know if you’re older or younger than me, if you are asking seriously, or if you’re acting on their behalf. I don’t know anything. I’m suspicious. They always come after me like this, turning someone close to me into a spy. My relatives, friends, neighbors – all are spying on me. They inform about who visits me and when, about what I do, at what time, etc. That’s my life right now. You should know how I feel.

The guy named Bolat at the Kazakhstan consulate here shoved me in the chest, called the police, and kicked me out of there. He had held on to my letter for 4 months. There are nice people there who really understand my situation and want to help me. But their boss is like that, so they can’t do anything, I think. Bolat made them blacklist my contact number, and when I went there said he hadn’t received my letter. I asked him how he could have not received it, because I got the photos from Lazzat saying that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs already had it. He then closed his door and ignored me.

S: Why did you go to the Kazakhstan consulate? How are they obstructing you? Can you talk about that? Are they not issuing you a visa?

Z: We are required to do a number of things here. You’ve seen my letter and it was in there, at the very top. We need a letter from Kazakhstan’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs stating that I have an urgent matter in Kazakhstan. Lazzat has sent me the letter. He [Bolat] said that he didn’t receive the letter the first time she sent it. Then he said the same the second time.

S: You’re saying that they didn’t do anything, claiming they hadn’t received any letter. Is it the Kazakhstan consulate in Urumqi that didn’t take any action?

Z: Yes, Bolat Syrlybayev.

S: Bolat Syrlybayev. So he keeps saying that he did not receive any letter?

Z: Yes, he does.

S: Lazzat says that she has sent it?

Z: Lazzat has sent it. Beibarys of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has said that he understands my situation very well, and that they had sent the letter and would send it again if need be. Bolat says that Lazzat might know Beibarys, as they both studied journalism at the Kazakh National University. I don’t want to say anything about Bolat, but he’s been delaying the progress of my letter for 4 months.

S: I would like to ask another question. Do you need the letter to get a visa to Kazakhstan, or do you need it to get your passport back from the Chinese authorities?

Z: To get my passport back from China.

S: Why do Lazzat and the other guys at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kazakhstan send the letter to the consulate in Urumqi rather than sending it directly to your address?

Z: That’s the rule.

S: Then you should get it from the consulate, right?

Z: Yes, I need to get it from the consulate and the consulate should also direct one copy to the foreign affairs bureau here. But they neither gave it to me nor sent it to the bureau. Just said that they haven’t received anything. There were guys named Adilgazy and Dias who were in touch with me. But now they’ve blocked me after meeting with Bolat. Bolat says…

S: Go on.

Z: He says that Dias is the guy who works in Beijing. He says he knows Abbas, the head of the Foreign Affairs Bureau. They were classmates. He said that the letter should be somewhere, and said that he would submit the letter together with the diplomatic note to the Chinese embassy in Kazakhstan. When I asked for his contact number, he said that Adilgazy would send it to me. Then when I wanted to ask Adilgazy for his number, I realized that Adilgazy had blocked me. I had talked to them many times on WeChat. I had cried, asking them if there was anyone who could help people like us.

It was on around December 17, 2020 that I wrote a letter to the President asking for help. I didn’t talk about my situation explicitly and just asked for help, saying that I was in a difficult situation. But there was no reply. That’s my situation. I went through all those ordeals despite having done nothing. I don’t know why this happened. There are such people out there. I sleep alone, and they ask if I’m not afraid of sleeping alone. What would I be afraid of, I ask? Afraid of demons in my dreams? I’m used to them now, as I’ve seen them in real life. That’s my situation, in a nutshell.

S: According to what was in the published letter, they called you back from Kazakhstan and then detained you in Urumqi?

Z: They did.

S: Did you have a Kazakhstan residence permit at that time?

Z: I did. The Saybagh District Culture Bureau called me back here.

S: The “wenhuaju” (文化局)?

Z: “Wentiju” (文体局).

S: What did they say?

Z: They told me it was urgent that I come back, since I got some award, in addition to there being some other matters.

S: Did they call you, or just through WeChat?

Z: I was using an international SIM card. I would answer the important calls and contact others through WeChat. Later, they checked our phones and deleted apps like Gmail and WeChat [likely an error, meaning WhatsApp]. They gave me a number that I needed to use. We could talk a bit back then. They regularly check our phones and delete content. I don’t know. They probably install something on it. I’ve just given you the gist of it.

The past six years of my life have not been easy. Every day is full of discrimination, threats, and intimidation, which I feel nervous talking about. Hardships, financial difficulties, psychological pressure, and so on. My family brings me food and clothes now. I can’t afford to buy clothes. Sometimes, I want to get new clothes to attend a wedding, but can’t ask my relatives for that. In a word, I have nothing. If I want to work somewhere, they send someone there, and the [employers] just change their minds.

S: You can’t work anywhere?

Z: I can’t work anywhere. In the summer, I wanted to work for my relatives, at a tourist area. But the police here cooperated with the police there, and we had to test for COVID every day, with them having full control of the results and able to make you test positive and then not let you out. People who allegedly came from Beijing kept questioning me. They’d ask things like “What do you think of America?” They also said that I should contact them if I ever visited Beijing, and that they would take me to different places and pose for pictures with me, after which I became aware of why they were there.

S: Who are the people who’d pose for photos? Are they Han Chinese?

Z: They were Han.

S: Why did they want to take photos with you? What was their intention?

Z: They were sent to observe what I was doing, what I was thinking. They are afraid that I might go to Beijing. Once, when I told them I’d go to Beijing, they checked all my relatives, recorded who my ancestors and my tribe were. Recently, it’s become hard just to go to Changji, which is very close. I cannot get tested for COVID there, and so I need to travel three kilometers to have that done. We need to do it every day.

I was able to work for about two months, and then the city went on lockdown for four months. Then I heard that they were giving out 300RMB in support, and wanted to know if I was eligible for it. I couldn’t stay in my neighborhood, and had to stay in my brother’s. I asked the neighborhood administration at my place of household registration if I could apply for that support money. They declined, saying I wasn’t a resident of their neighborhood. On October 2 or October 3, the lockdown was eased, and I was moving back to my neighborhood, but they did not let me in. I couldn’t enter my home. They didn’t even allow me to go get my clothes.

S: What was their excuse? They didn’t let you enter your own home?

Z: They said that I would not be able to leave. I told them that that was okay, I could just stay there. That this was my mom’s apartment, and that, since I was unmarried, I lived with her. They didn’t let me in, with two of them grabbing me by my shoulders and walking me out through the gate.

Two months later, winter came, but my winter clothes were in that apartment. I had to contact the police, both at the place where I was and the place where my clothes were. Finally, they told me that I could get my clothes. I was furious, and asked them why they were watching over all these things.

S: Were the guards who didn’t let you in Han Chinese?

Z: One Uyghur, one Han. There was another Uyghur at the neighborhood administration. Two Uyghurs, one Han. There are many bootlickers among Uyghurs.

S: Don’t say such words on the phone. I’m just asking about what happened, since they didn’t let you into your home. Were you able to get your clothes back?

Z: I got my clothes back and stayed here. Where else could I go?

S: Which place do you mean by “here”?

Z: The address written on the letter.

S: Is that your home?

Z: No, my mom’s home. They forced me to sell my own.

S: Why?

Z: I’d prefer to talk about it later. I’m tired. I spent 6 months transferring my company to inner China. Then I wanted to close my account here. I had two accounts in two different banks. But neither of them has reopened yet. The banks have been closed since the 22nd. They’re located close to the Kazakhstan consulate. When I went to the Kazakhstan consulate, they kicked me out, like I’ve told you. I weighed my options and gave up. When I got home, they brought some papers for me to sign. They did this every day and I didn’t know what they were. Then I decided to tell my friends about this.

S: When you were forced to sell your home, did you receive the money for it or did they take it away?

Z: I bought the home in 2009, with a mortgage, which should be paid off in 2029.

S: 20 years?

Z: Yes, 20 years. I thought it was good to buy a home like this, instead of with a one-time payment. It was a two-story apartment. I worked on the first floor, while the second floor was my home.

S: Which district in Urumqi is it in?

Z: Yipin Jiachunqiu (宜品家春秋).

S: Where is that?

Z: It’s also in the Saybagh District.

S: Go on.

Z: I bought the home there, and my company was based there too. We had our offices open mainly near the TV station in the Tianshan District.

S: What kind of business did you do?

Z: Mainly studios. We recorded news, songs, and the like.

S: Music?

Z: Yes, and dubbing.

S: I see.

Z: We’d do dubbing, make radio and television programs. Produce music. We’d work with government organizations like the Kazakh Radio in Beijing, or the local TV and radio station here. We would arrange concerts as well.

S: Okay.

Z: When I came back from there [camp], the rent for the home hadn’t been paid for two years. They told me that since I had failed to pay it, it needed to be sold to the government at a low price. I said that it was them who had taken me away to that place. I hadn’t been to a social event in two years, I said, and this was my only home, so I really needed it. But they didn’t care. In the end, they told me that if I wanted to get my passport back, I’d need to repay the debt. So I had to pay. I paid off all of the debt that had accumulated over the two years, including things like the salaries of my employees. I still had some money left after the debts were paid off, but would need it to support myself. And now I’ve run out of money. Now, I rely on my family. My parents are tired mentally as well, since they bother them a lot too.

S: Can we find your company’s name on Google?

Z: You should be able to find it if you type “Xinjiang Aole Wenhua Yishu Chuanmei Youxiangongsi” (新疆奥乐文化艺术传媒有限公司). It’s in Xi’an, Shaanxi now. Baidu “Shaanxi Aole Wenhua Yishu Chuanmei Youxiangongsi” (陕西奥乐文化艺术传媒有限公司).

S: Which “ao”?

Z: “Ao” as in “aoyunhui” (奥运会). “Le” as in “kuaile” (快乐). Are you from here?

S: Yes, I am. But I’m a Kazakhstan citizen. I live in America now. It was me who sent you the text message.

Z: You’re calling from a Kazakhstan number now.

S: Am I? Oh, yes. I sent you a message and asked you to send the files to Lazzat.

Z: Okay. Do Kazakhstan numbers work in America?

S: Yes, because of international roaming.

Z: I see. So, that’s what I’m going through. I’ve already talked about it so much. I’ve described my situation 99 times to people here. I’m in difficult circumstances. I’ve told them to cut it out with the nice words. Because when they come, they say it’s to ask about my situation. If they need information about me, they can just go to the police, the public security bureau, or the bureau of culture.

I can’t take it anymore, and my heart is weak. I’ve mentioned this before as well. Before, I could bear with it after a good crying session, but now that doesn’t help. My heartbeat remains fast for several days, and I cannot see a doctor. After all of these things, I’ve decided that I just don’t have any strength left to think about the country’s reputation. I want to say everything out loud before I die.

S: How long were you in the No. 2 and No. 3 prisons in Urumqi?

Z: About 4 months.

S: In total, in the two prisons?

Z: Yes.

S: And in the education center?

Z: September 27. I was in those places from September 26, 2017 to February 3, 2018, and then I was released.

S: Were you in the education center after that?

Z: Yes.

S: Okay. The first time they detained you, when they handcuffed and shackled you, was it for having Facebook and Instagram?

Z: Yes, that’s why. Later, they said that there was a downloaded photo of a man performing namaz.

S: Who downloaded the photo?

Z: I told them that I didn’t do anything like that, and that I don’t pray. I also explained that I don’t use Facebook and Instagram. They were on my phone, but I’ve never used them. I asked them to check if I had used them.

S: Was it a phone bought in Kazakhstan?

Z: Are Instagram and Facebook tools for propagating terrorism? What kinds of tools are they? Don’t lots of people use them?

S: Instagram is similar to WeChat and Douyin. Instagram and Facebook both belong to the American Zuckerberg, one of the richest men in the world. They’re social networking apps. Similar to Weibo, WeChat, Douyin… Zuckerberg has been to Beijing and has orders from China. He’s a well-known person in the world. It’s his product. All of America uses it. Kazakhstan, Russia, etc… all use it.

Z: Yes, they do. We had WeChat and were using WeChat only. I didn’t even have time to use Instagram. My dad was ill, and I was busy taking him to hospitals. On top of that, I had a busy job. I wonder why they say that Instagram and Facebook are like that. Many people use them. It’s just an excuse.

S: There is a Facebook account for the Central Kazakh Radio Station. They even use the Cyrillic Kazakh alphabet. Sometimes they write in Cyrillic correctly, sometimes not. For example, they might write “irimshik” (“ірімшік”) incorrectly as “yrymshyk” (“ырымшык”), or “otirikshi” (“өтірікші”) as “otyrykshy” (“отырыкшы”). But they do have a Facebook account. CCTV has both Facebook and Instagram accounts. It’s not a crime for them to use these apps, but if you use these apps, then it’s a crime. You see?

Z: Yes, it’s like that. Another thing I’d like to mention is that they told me to confess at least one wrongdoing if I wanted to be released. I said I didn’t have any. They suggested to say that I changed my household registration, or that I had been abroad. I refused.

When I travelled abroad, it was after having received permission. I went to the Saybagh District Exit and Entry Administration Bureau and asked them if I was permitted to go abroad. I handed my passport over to someone named Dilnur there. She returned it to me, saying that it was “zhengchang” (正常, “normal”). When I heard that they were collecting passports, I contacted the Tianshan District authorities, as well as those of the neighborhood where I was living, to ask if I needed to hand my passport in. They told me I didn’t. So, I kept the passport with me.

When I was allowed a home visit from my studies, they took my passport and also asked me to hand in my property ownership certificate. I was able to find some excuses to avoid handing in that document. They asked for the receipt, and I gave it to them. I was fined, as they said the receipt was lost at the tax department. I had to go to many government bodies to resolve this issue.

S: What was the lost receipt for?

Z: The receipt of my company. I told them that I had handed in, but they denied this. When they asked for my passport, I handed over my passport and receipt. I didn’t give them the property ownership certificate.

S: I see. So your goal now is to get back your passport and leave for Kazakhstan?

Z: Yes. I have nothing to do here anymore. I want to go and live there. I’ve lost all my hope here.

S: They interrogate you wherever you go?

Z: Sorry?

S: They interrogate you wherever you go?

Z: Yes, they interrogate you wherever you go and abuse you. I end up crying at those places. They told us we wouldn’t be able to leave if we didn’t admit our wrongdoings. I told them I wouldn’t. I didn’t admit anything. One day, they brought a piece of paper with our wrongdoings listed. Mine was written as “obstructing public service”. It’s written as “fanghai gongwu” (妨害公务). Since everyone else was admitting that, I assumed that it wasn’t that serious, as it wasn’t related to terrorism or religion, and I didn’t say anything. Then when I came back, I was explaining things to the police and asking what “fanghai gongwu” meant. They’d ask me if I had done this or that. I’d say no. That’s strange, they’d say, and would ultimately stop asking me about it.

S: So basically, they force you to choose one of the crimes, no matter if you are willing to do so or not? Like buying something at a supermarket.

Z: Yes, it was like that. It was impossible to be released without doing that. I first saw it on April 6, 2019, and I kept quiet.

S: Go on.

Z: And then they told us to write something, so I wrote that I hadn’t understood it properly when [the officials] in Urumqi County wanted to help with my business. That I had misunderstood it and would now learn from my mistakes and cooperate with them. On April 7, they released me.

There was one time when the Urumqi County government wanted to arrange a cultural event [in the camp]. The official came and we sang in front of them. My hair was grey, and I was very thin. When I saw them watching us singing, I felt terrible.

S: Which song did you sing?

Z: I will tell you later. The local songs.

S: Was it the “Without the Communist Party, There Would Be No New China” one?

Z: Yes, songs like that.

S: Can you still sing that song? Does the song go “meiyou gongchandang, meiyou xinzhongguo” (没有共产党, 没有新中国)?

Z: Yes.

S: Then let me give your contact number to the journalists and embassies in Shanghai and Beijing. Is your Chinese good?

Z: It is.

S: That’s good. Most of them speak Chinese. Those who don’t will have interpreters with them. The interpreters might speak Chinese with an accent. If you can handle that, they can interview you. Put simply, you can achieve your goal with the pressure created by the media. You will be able to leave for Kazakhstan if you want.

Z: I just want to say that, unless they kill me or do something to me in secret, I plan to hang on. If I suddenly go insane, change my mind, or become disabled, that cannot be a coincidence. That will be a sign of some plot against me.

S: I am recording our conversation. Your letter has been published on the internet. We have copied it and broadcasted it on our YouTube channel. I have posted it on Twitter in English and Chinese. I’ve attached your photo with your full name. It’s 4:19 AM now. It is December 30 in America. I’ve sent your letter to all the relevant people. That’s the first thing. The second thing is that I’m recording our conversation. You’ve been published in international media, so you’re in the open sources. You’ve already told your main story. They won’t be able to harm you. If they put pressure on you…

Z: I want to say…

S: Yes?

Z: When I eat outside, they try to poison me, or at least make me sick by putting something in my food. They can make good use of the prevention-and-control policies. After being released from the place where I studied, they’d take you to the hospital every time you had a temperature. And what they do at the hospital is up to them. To do that, they poisoned me 3-4 times. I got poisoned and had a fever. I almost died.

S: Now they’ve lifted all the restrictions in China.

Z: Sorry?

S: They don’t even do COVID tests there anymore now.

Z: I had to ask permission to have that test.

S: It’s no longer compulsory to do it, is it?

Z: There is face recognition everywhere, and wherever I go they recognize my face, which makes the sound go off and causes someone to approach me. I think it’s affecting my health as well. They said that they would have my face removed, but later they also wanted me to have an argument with the police and…

S: You don’t need to have a rapid COVID test to go to another place now, right?

Z: Now there’s no need. But that’s only been the case for a short while. Before that…

S: We know that. We know everything. [Restrictions] were lifted very recently. We know that. Before that, they checked your nose and mouth at every step.

Z: Yes.

S: Checked your saliva.

Z: Yes. But who cares if they check that. The problem is that my face is everywhere. If I go to a shopping mall, my face shows up and the machine goes off. Then they do a full-body search, including my socks. I’ve pleaded with them to get rid of this. It is so embarrassing and everybody looks at you. They said they’d remove it but haven’t.

S: I can’t hear you.

Z: Then… it’s my mom next to me.

I would get upset because of that and they would wait for me to get angry. Every time, I’d get really upset and cry. They’ve given names like “aixin xuexiao” (“kindness school”, 爱心学校), which is a mental hospital, and “wenming xuexiao” (“civilization school”, 文明学校), which is where we studied. They tell you that they will take you to one of those.

They came to my house. I have the videos. I’ve sent them to Brother Auyt. Get them from Brother Auyt, and if Brother Auyt didn’t get them from Galym yet, then ask Galym to send them quickly. Everything is there, including how I’m innocent, what they did to me, the excuses they found, how they forced me… Everything is there.

They like to talk about laws, so we will need all these various pieces of evidences, including my visit to all the relevant authorities in the autonomous region. I’ve been to the central government. I’ve written to Chen Quanguo. I’ve been to the Kazakhstan consulate many times, and have cried there too. You can ask Dias and Adiljan. They know how I tremble out of fear in those places. When I get pressured, I send them messages, since I’m afraid of being taken away. They can arbitrarily detain you, and then you disappear. They might be watching and listening to our conversation.

S: They are listening, but your conversation with us is what will guarantee your safety. We’re not against the Chinese government. We don’t have separatist thoughts. What all of us ask is to leave the Kazakhs alone in their motherland. Don’t treat them badly. Let them go if they want to move to Kazakhstan. What they did to you is tyranny. You didn’t even know what Facebook and Instagram were, and you hadn’t even used them. But they detained you. This is the vileness and oppression of the local authorities where you live. A violation of the law. They should have been imprisoned.

I will pass your contact number and they will contact you. You will need to tell them when were you taken to the No. 2 and No. 3 prisons, for how long, when they sent you to the so-called “education center”, and how long you stayed there. Tell them you cannot get your passport back to move to Kazakhstan. That there are obstacles, like getting an invitation letter, the Kazakhstan consulate saying they didn’t get the letter, and so on. That the Kazakhstan consulate is also trying to stop you.

By the way, that office doesn’t have consulate status. It’s just called the “visa and passport service center in Urumqi”. Say that they’re hindering the procedure because of corruption. It’s because the Chinese government has bought those who shoved you in the chest. Basically, they just receive the salary and do what they’re told to do.

Z: I could sense that. It hurts me.

S: They are all traitors.

Z: Even these people do such things. How shameful.

S: Let me finish what I was saying. The law is being violated. Chen Quanguo was assigned another job in Beijing, and he is no longer the secretary in Xinjiang.

Z: A certain Ma replaced him.

S: Right. Was it Ma Xingrui?

Z: They removed my face [from the alert system] after Ma arrived. That was the only benefit I got. The discrimination and despotism are still there.

S: Okay. Well… Zhanar, can you send over the name of your company and the name and phone number of the guy in Kazakhstan to whom you sent the videos? Text them to the number I used to contact you the first time.

Z: I don’t have Galym’s phone number. I have Brother Auyt’s number. Should I share it with you?

S: I have Auyt’s number.

Z: Then ask Brother Auyt.

S: Okay. Then my number…

Z: I have acquaintances who moved over from China, but I don’t want to bother them because I’m worried that they might get pressured.

S: Keep my American phone number somewhere safe.

Z: This number?

S: Yes. I’ve sent my e-mail too. Hide that somewhere safe as well. If you write to me, I will receive your letter.

Z: I haven’t received your e-mail address.

S: I sent it to you by writing the e-mail in English and “dianziyouxiang” (电子邮箱, “e-mail”) in Chinese, preceded by a colon.

Z: I didn’t receive that.

S: I see. They might have deleted it. I’ll write again.

Z: Please contact Brother Auyt and find Almagul and Galym through him and get the files.

S: Okay.

Z: Thank you.

S: If there is something urgent, text to my American number, either in Kazakh or Chinese.

Z: Got it.

S: Don’t be afraid. Be firm. You might be afraid, unsure if your actions will be successful. Actually, hundreds of thousands of Kazakhs have been released. Kazakhs arrested in Ili, Tacheng, and Altay, those who were detained at political or education schools. All of them were released. There are still people who are imprisoned. However, in the beginning there were 150-170 people who came to us to appeal every day, and now the number has declined to 1-2 people a month. They’ve been released. There was a village where they arrested 200-300 guys, in one village. They’ve all been released now.

Since you can’t access international media, you don’t know about this. All of it has been published. At the end of 2018 and the beginning of 2019, it was published that 400 Kazakhs in Tacheng City, 200 Kazakhs in Shyngyl, Altay, and 400 Kazakhs in Koktogai were released. This was possible because their relatives in Kazakhstan looked for them, and because journalists came to Kazakhstan. Our office was in Almaty. Journalists came from America and Europe. Thanks to those journalists, the problem was raised when we told the truth. In the end…

Z: I’d like to say something…

S: …they regretted that they had locked up Kazakhs. They saw that it caught the world’s attention when they detained Kazakhs, and recognized their mistake. So, the Chinese government released Kazakhs, basically. We did the same. We used the same method. I openly declared it in 2017. You can find it all in my lectures on social media.

We do not fight for the Kazakhs’ land. It is true that it is Kazakh land, but now it belongs to China. The UN has acknowledged it. There are clear borders. We had no plans to overthrow the Chinese government. We have only one demand, which is to not arrest Kazakhs arbitrarily. I declared at a big international meeting that if they released the Kazakhs today, I would be ready to go to the mountains and become a herder.

Z: Hmm… Can I ask your name, please?

S: I’m not afraid of telling you my name. The whole world knows me. I’m more worried that the villainous people around you might put pressure on you because of me. If you want me to tell you, I will.

Z: It’s fine. No need.

S: I can tell you if you want me to. They are listening to you. On the other hand, talking to me could be a guarantee of your life and safety.

Z: There’s no need.

S: It could guarantee your life. Publishing your letter is a big guarantee that they will not harm you. We will keep asking the Chinese government about your whereabouts. If your phone is powered off, we will ask them, and we will ask if they have arrested you again. We will keep bothering them. Therefore, they will have no choice but to let you go.

Z: I hope so. I’ve had enough of them. I’d like to ask… I don’t know those people who will contact me. I’m able to talk to you since you speak Kazakh. I would like them to meet me in person if they want to interview me. If they have a document and I can see it, then I can talk to them.

S: I will try my best to send someone. I’ve already contacted a politician who is well known in Europe and America and who lives in Beijing. I will write to him again and ask him to help you.

Z: Yes, please let them come here. They will understand the situation when they see that those people are surrounding me. Let them tell me in front of the [journalists] that I was lying. Of course, they are very good at this. However, let them show the evidence, if they can. I am ready to argue.

S: If international organizations want to help get you to America, will you come?

Z: I don’t know. I want to live a peaceful life. I’ve never been there. I just want to leave this place. I want to go to Kazakhstan, and I have things to do there.

S: A lot of people start out thinking that America is far away, but once you get on the plane you get there in 15-16 hours. Regardless of whether you’re flying from Beijing or Shanghai. If you fly from Turkey, then it’s 12-16 hours. Kazakhs from China were afraid of even coming to Almaty at the beginning, myself included, thinking it’s a different place with different people whom we don’t know. There are about 50000 to 60000 Kazakhs now in the US.

Z: I’ve seen that. I read Toutiao most of the time, and I’m also following the ongoing war. I didn’t choose politics or economics. I chose culture because I like music, and I sing a bit too. I studied media and I’m good at writing, so I combined the two.

S: Did you study at KazGU?

Z: As an adult, I think it’s good to pay attention to what’s going on around the world. I haven’t thought about it. I’m not in condition to think about that now. But I’m not against it, if I can live a peaceful life.

S: When were you born, Zhanar?

Z: Sorry?

S: When were you born? What’s your date of birth?

Z: I’m old. I’m 47. I was born on November 30, 1977. I asked to be allowed to go to Kazakhstan while I was having periods. I had a boyfriend in Kazakhstan. Now he’s married. I’ve pleaded to them, explaining my situation and saying that I want to have a child while I still have normal periods. Nobody cared.

S: We’re peers.

Z: They said that I can find someone to marry here.

S: It’s your human right to go to and visit any place you like. It’s your freedom. Hundreds of planes from Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, Chongqing, etc. land in New York. Countless flights from China land and take off at the LaGuardia and JFK airports. There are countless Han Chinese, and it makes you feel like you were in the Hualing, Silu, Bianjiang Hotel, or Xiyu areas of Urumqi. They can freely come for visits or study.

Z: I would like to go to Europe. I want to see Europe and every corner of Kazakhstan, Katonkaragai… See the nature. You know, I want to have a spiritual life as well.

S: You will get there. The brave step you took will take you there. Nobody else has taken such a brave step, like you did. Most of them have been rescued because their relatives in Kazakhstan appealed. Your relatives haven’t appealed, but your letter has gone public. It’s a first. There’s no need to hide. Sairagul Sauytbai from Ili crossed the border illegally to flee to Kazakhstan, in 2018. We rescued her and sent her to Sweden. She received asylum status in Sweden. Then, Tarbagatai…

Z: Please. I don’t know if you are older or younger than me, but I don’t want to get involved in politics and I don’t want to seek asylum.

S: You want to live an ordinary life like other Kazakhs, right?

Z: Yes. I have never gone through these things before, and I am not lying about what I’ve been through. I’m not talking about other people either. So, what I want is just to ensure my human rights and…

S: I understand. All of us want to live ordinary and peaceful lives. When the Chinese government started to detain Kazakhs in China, we also had to stop our business in order to rescue them. If tomorrow they put pressure on you for talking to me, tell them to listen to our conversation and say that I have told you my name, but that you don’t know me.

You say that you have nowhere to go, since they have made you sell your residence and detained you for two years. You are not allowed to work. So, tell them that you want to use the rest of your life to go see other countries. Tell them that you know people in Kazakhstan, and that you can live a good life and earn money in Kazakhstan with the skills you have. Tell them that you want to go to Katonkaragai, to have horse and camel milk and spend time in nature, as treatment. The policies have changed now, with regard to allowing people to go abroad and issuing their passports. At least that’s what they’re saying on TV, in both Kazakh and Chinese. Tell them that.

Z: They won’t grant me that in this lifetime. I’m sure about this. There’s so many obstacles. They might even just disappear once I go to their office. They can track me through GPS, and once I get there they just disappear. They know which window I go to, and the person working that window just leaves their place. I wait and wait, and then leave, and they return to work once I’m gone. I’ve tried it with different people.

S: Don’t lose hope. You’ve made your decision and you didn’t have a choice. Never lose hope.

Z: It doesn’t matter now if I’m afraid or not. No matter if things work out or not, if I’m afraid or not, what’s happening is happening. They could not make me give up on myself. I told them that I hadn’t done anything wrong, and that I would never give up on myself, and that I will stand dignified in truth. I told them that it was they who had ulterior motives. Now I have to rely on food provided by my parents. Sometimes, I’m so anxious that I can’t eat properly.

S: When was it that you wrote the letter of appeal in Banfanggou [Tomurti] or Cangfanggou?

Z: They embezzled all the money that should have been given to the Kazakhs there. We started our campaign in 2008, and then the new document was issued in 2010. People are still discontent with the outcome. They were given 9800.

S: Was that for the entire plot of land or per mu?

Z: Per mu. The standard is 15000.

S: Sorry?

Z: They know who stole the money. Actually, one mu is 15000, and the officials know who stole the difference. The money that reached the lower-level government was 9800, of which the herders only got 73%. They [officials] said that there was a new policy in Urumqi, according to which 27% should be taken by the government. I said that the relevant documents were issued by the financial department, and that they didn’t have the authority to issue such documents. Usually, they are issued by autonomous units, like Changji or Mori or the Autonomous Region. Such decisions are made only with the permission of the People’s congress. Whenever I face difficulties, I mention this to them, but they just ignore it.

S: How many Kazakh households were there?

Z: I represented 32 families.

S: 32 households? What was the maximum size of their land, about?

Z: Just our family alone has about 700 mu of land.

S: How much?

Z: About 700 mu.

S: Seven hundred?!

Z: Yes. Land for winter, fall, and summer.

S: Wow. 15 mu is one hectare. 600 mu is 40 hectares.

Z: But they didn’t count all of them. They counted in their own way, and threatened the herders who disagreed, saying that they were going against the law. And since they [herders] did not know the law, they gave up. They also didn’t let the Party members who were among the herders protest. In principle, it is the Party members who should lead such events.

You should also be familiar with these situations. They gave us the money for Xikou only. The rest wasn’t given to us. Part of the village is used for a China Communications Construction Company road project. However, they only gave a tiny bit of the subsidy to the herders. The first time, they gave 9800 per mu, and the second time they gave 20000RMB per person, and that was it.

She [probably her mother, sitting next to her] is asking me why I’m telling you all this.

S: Zhanar, do not turn off your mobile phone tomorrow. There is a number that starts with +1. Not this number, but my American number.

Z: 001?

S: Yes. Save that number. You’ve sent a message to that number. Save it. Keep it in many places. Because if they take your phone away and turn it off you might not be able to find me.

Z: Okay.

S: Okay?

Z: Okay.

S: Goodbye. Don’t panic, don’t give up. We’ve rescued hundreds of thousands of Kazakhs. The Kazakhs have not committed any crime. They are not guilty in front of the Chinese government. Kazakhs have not fought to overthrow the Chinese government. Kazakhs have not fought to separate Xinjiang from China. Kazakhs have not protested in the streets against the Chinese Communist Party. The Kazakhs were just living their life herding their livestock. The only dream they have is to visit their relatives in Kazakhstan, or to settle there. The Kazakhs have not done anything. We have emphasized this too when defending human rights.

I’ve been saying this since 2017. I said: hey Chinese government, listen to me, we Kazakhs do not want to separate from you and become an independent state. There hasn’t been a single Kazakh with this slogan in the streets, nor have there been any religious extremists. There hasn’t been a single Kazakh who carried a bomb and exploded. The Kazakhs were just living on their grasslands, freely singing their songs. They’ve probably fought with each other when they got drunk at weddings, but even in those instances they did not harm other ethnicities. They were fighting with each other. If you release Kazakhs today, we are ready to go back to our mountains tomorrow. If not, we will raise this issue in Europe and America. This is what we said.

As a result, after considering all of this, the Chinese government thought I would be scared and put pressure on me in Kazakhstan. You know the Kazakh government is full of corrupt officials who are easily bought. Starting from 2018, Kazakhstan’s National Security Bureau would warn me 4 times in written form, and would come to my house twice to tell me to stop and not raise this issue anymore. They threatened me. Lured me with ideas of climbing the career ladder. But I did not stop. I said I would stop only when China released the Kazakhs.

In 2019, they initiated an administrative case against me. Then they fined me. On March 10, 2019, they arrested me, in Almaty, and took me to Astana on a special plane. Then they imprisoned me. Then the world raised my case. The UN initiated a case about me and declared that I was innocent. The European parliament recognized me as innocent. About 40 organizations around the world wrote a letter to Qasym-Zhomart Tokayev. I haven’t killed anyone. I have not been fined even once for breaking a law. I haven’t even run a red light once in my entire life. When I was doing business, I had my own driver.

In short, after six months of prison and house arrest, they released me. In 2020, I raised the issue again. By then, many Kazakhs had been released. However, there still were others whose relatives came to appeal. I started running our office again, which had been managed by other guys for some time. Again the guys from the National Security Bureau approached me and said that I was harming the friendship between Kazakhstan and China. I replied and asked them to tell me why they [China] were detaining Kazakhs if we were friends. Why were there cases of a wife being in Kazakhstan and the husband in detention in China, or vice versa? Why? Tell your friend to stop it, I said.

Two criminal cases were initiated against me in 2020. People who came from China wrote appeals against me. Disgusting people came from Ili and Altay and wrote appeal letters against me. They carried out the tasks given to them by the National Security Bureau. It didn’t really work. Then a member of parliament wrote a letter against me, with 10000 signatures, and accused me of being an instigator harming the friendship of the two countries. However, when the case reached the procuratorate, they could not indict me because of international pressure.

I arrived in America on January 21, 2021. Then the Kazakh government had to state that they voided one of the cases initiated against me. I’m that guy.

Z: You’ve experienced a lot as well.

S: I’ve been working to rescue Kazakhs like you.

Z: Only those who have experienced it understand it well.

S: I’ve also been in jail. The Kazakh government arrested me after getting an order from the Chinese government. But my mission has always been… I’ve always told the Chinese government that if they left the Kazakhs alone, I would not raise this issue. Otherwise, I will keep raising it, I said. In any case, I will not become like the Dalai Lama or Rebiya Kadeer. I will not dispute the land that has been ratified by the UN. Just leave the Kazakhs alone, I said. Respect Kazakhs as Chinese citizens. Treat Kazakhs the same way you treat the Han Chinese, give them the same rights. If Han have the right to go abroad, then so should the Kazakhs. If Han people have the right to property, then so should the Kazakhs. Do not take away their grasslands. This is what I demand.

I’ve been talking about this in my interviews to media in Europe and America. There is no TV or newspaper that hasn’t written about me. I’ve been raising this issue and my demands haven’t changed. I have nothing to do with you if you leave the Kazakhs alone, I said. If you oppress the Kazakhs living in China, then I will not stop, I said. That is my principle. I’m not against the Han people, or the Chinese government. I don’t have the intention to separate Kazakhs from China and establish an independent state. I don’t want the people to die as a result of a war. I want the people to lead a peaceful life.

The people were living in peace before. The Kazakhs were herding, the Han Chinese were doing their trade and building their factories. Then the disgusting Chen Quanguo started to detain everyone for nothing, with different made-up accusations, falsely accusing people. They did whatever came to their mind, and we stood up. It’s the same now.

Z: In the past, they didn’t forbid our language and religion. This is our homeland, and Kazakhstan is the land of Kazakhs. We thought that we would build the golden bridge of friendship through cultural exchange. I’m a positive person, and before starting something always think about what benefits it will bring to the people. I still think this way. We made cultural programs that were beneficial. Did I do all that just to be subjected to these ordeals? I couldn’t bear this. I thought there’d be someone to acknowledge it.

S: Your story has been published in Kazakhstan and now the world is aware of it. I immediately had it translated into English. Where can we find the programs you made? It doesn’t matter if it was for the Central Radio or for the radio in Urumqi. Are there links to them?

Z: I don’t have them now. It’s been 5 years since I last worked on that. The program has also gone off air.

S: They’re not available on the internet?

Z: They were on the internet, but I’m not sure if you’d be able to find them now.

S: Could you send them to me if you’re able to find them?

Z: One of them was called “Saira Dombyra”. It was aired at 10 AM, and would be repeated in the evenings for another two hours. I’ve done over 1000 hours of the program in total.

S: That’s a monumental effort.

Z: It would be re-aired later. I was the first one to take the Qara Zhorga dance to the stage with a band. I revised the songs in the 1980s, and made a program with songs unique to Chinese Kazakhs. My programs on ethnic unity were added to the Uyghur radio rotation as well.

S: I assume they’re still on their website.

Z: You can have a look. I haven’t searched for them. Actually, the Kazakhs in China have preserved the purity of their language, and their songs are unique. Even Kazakhs in Kazakhstan acknowledge the beauty of the songs by Chinese Kazakhs.

S: They’ve preserved their historic traditions.

Z: I was planning to organize regular concerts for those songs. I wanted to contribute to preserving the Chinese Kazakh culture. That was my dream. Among my peers, I was the one who knew the most old songs. I was the one who had looked into them the most. I cherish each one of those songs. I had even planned everything in my mind, including such details as who would sing which song.

I can’t understand why they don’t let me go. Is it bad if I do such things? Why don’t they mind their own business and let me do mine? No one wants to listen. They just laugh at you.

S: I see. Well, if you want to talk to me, text me anytime at my American number, okay?

Z: Okay. Are you older than me?

S: Yes, I am older than you. You can’t write to my Kazakhstan number. Write to my American number. Don’t forget.

Z: Got it.

S: And if you want me to call, I will, at any time.

Z: I will text you, then.

S: Regardless of who contacts you, whether it’s Han or… Because there are Han people in America as well, and they’re American citizens and they might be residing in China and doing journalism. Or if people who speak Chinese with a foreign accent contact you… Whoever it may be, don’t worry, and just give them the gist of your situation.

Tell them that you are not able to get you passport back. Tell them that the culture department called you back while you were in Kazakhstan. The time periods you were in different prisons. That the total amount of time you were in detention was two years and twenty-three days. That they took away your passport and forced you to sell your house. And any other things that you may have forgotten to tell me and that you might remember later, which could be anything related to your rights being violated.

From my experience, many people tend to forget many details when they are interviewed over the phone. Think in advance about what you need to tell the politicians and journalists and point them out to them briefly and precisely. You’ve already started, so do not stop here. There’s no way back. Your case has already been published and it is all over the internet now. The Chinese government will have no choice but to let you go now.

Z: I’m not sure, though. They are…

S: Listen to me. Many people were able to leave. They weren’t letting a student girl in Beijing go. Her parents had moved to Kazakhstan. In the end, after international organizations got involved, they had to let her go. There are so many examples like this. There are so many couples who are separated between the two countries.

Fifty-eight children who had either one or both parents detained protested in front of the Chinese consulate on May 30, 2018. One of the female consulate staff members approached me and asked me to enter the building. I said that I would not enter the building, saying I was ready to talk in any public place, while the consulate building was Chinese territory. The consulate in Almaty is no exception. I told them to release those children’s parents. Those children were just those from Almaty, and there were thousands of other children like them out there who could not come. I mentioned that it was International Children’s Day the next day. I also said that if they didn’t release their parents, we would come there every day and draw the attention of the world. Later, they let the parents of those children leave for Kazakhstan. We did this.

Z: I’ve heard of that, and I saw them meeting their relatives at the airport. I also thought I would be able to go too.

S: Have you seen a guy on Douyin who talked about the war between Ukraine and Russia very loudly while you were browsing? That was me.

Z: Okay. That I didn’t watch.

S: I speak Kazakh in those videos. I myself don’t use Douyin or TikTok, because I don’t trust them, but some people posted parts of my YouTube video on TikTok-Douyin.

Z: They don’t post that here. I’ve never heard of Kazakhs talking about it. I mostly watch live streams by Han bloggers and have an understanding of the general situation.

My mom says that she’s hungry.

S: How old is your mom?

Z: Sorry?

S: How old is your mom?

Z: My mom is 77. I really feel for my mom a lot. My situation has caused her a lot of pain. I don’t tell that much to my family. Everyone has their own things to do and family to feed. They are helping me with food. They help me whenever I need any help.

S: What’s your tribe?

Z: I’m a Naiman.

S: Which one?

Z: I don’t tell them about my situation. Because I’m worried that it could have a bad influence on them. Two days ago, my mom said that she was feeling terrible and wanted to come be with me. I said yes, please come. She loves the rice soup that I make. I told her I would welcome her with rice soup.

Now she’s sitting next to me. She can’t hear very well. And she’s so worried about me. She can sleep well if she sees that I’m happy. Otherwise, she can’t sleep. She cries sometimes.

S: Which tribe in Naiman?

Z: Karakerei Kabanbai.

S: You’re my sister, then.

Z: Really?

S: Are you Muryn?

Z: Sorry?

S: Which tribe again?

Z: Burynbet.

S: Can I have your mother’s name? If you disappear, we could call her.

Z: My mom can’t talk. Hopefully, I will not disappear, God willing. They can’t talk, so I will be the one talking to you. This is my address. I can’t go anywhere else. If they want, they can come to my place. I will not go out anymore after all this, I think. I might ask my relatives to help me with groceries. They can do anything. There’s a saying: “killing without batting an eyelash”. Now they can arrest you without batting an eyelash. That’s my situation. I will keep in touch, then.

S: Good.

Z: And you don’t disappear either.

S: Would you like me to post our conversation from today too? Everyone already knows you.

Z: Okay. Post it.

S: You agree with my posting it?

Z: I do.

S: Thank you, Zhanar. Take care.

Z: Thank you as well.

S: Believe that there will be a day when a thousand people meet you at the Almaty airport with flowers, with you walking on a red carpet there. We’ll arrange everything. The Chinese government will let you go. You haven’t killed anyone, you haven’t set anything on fire. You will be welcomed by your brothers and sisters, and by journalists. We arranged what you saw on Douyin.

Z: My ears were tearing when I watched those videos, wishing the same for myself.

S: That day will come. Don’t lose hope. You will leave for Kazakhstan, and you will find your other half, will have your kids and family. Please believe in that.

Z: Please cut out the part related to women’s health before posting.

S: Don’t worry about that. You haven’t said anything inappropriate. We will listen to it and edit it. It was a really good interview. Don’t worry too much. Never forget that you’re not a criminal.

Z: That’s why I’m not afraid. Because I’m not a criminal. I raised people’s issues in a civilized manner, but they twisted it. They took away everything from me, including my health, and have reduced me to a beggar. I almost lost my life, and so I decided to speak up about it instead of dying in silence.

I don’t change my mind easily. I’m a stubborn person. Once I’ve made my decision, I stick to it. The only way they could probably make me change my mind would be to make me drink something poisonous or who knows what… I can’t exclude that this might happen. They might threaten me by putting pressure on my relatives, or they might even make them say something different about me. What I’ve said in this conversation is the immutable reality.

S: In other words, you’re not thinking of poisoning yourself or committing suicide, right?

Z: No, I’m not. They would be very happy if I killed myself.

S: Very good. That was the reply I was expecting. It is very important to say this. Because they might kill you and declare that you committed suicide. You don’t have any such intentions, right?

Z: No. I want to live and see many good things. I want to take my mother to Kazakhstan. She’s always wanted to see Kazakhstan, and all these problems have made it impossible for us to visit. It makes her sad that she still hasn’t been to Kazakhstan at her age. Sometimes, she mutters to me about it.

S: If the Chinese ask questions, tell them that Kazakhstan is a member state of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. It is not an enemy of China but a neighboring country. China is getting oil and gas from Kazakhstan. Urumqi used to have polluted gray skies because of the coal and now the sky there is clearer. Kazakhstan is also providing gas to Shanghai and Hong Kong. Kazakhstan and China organize several military trainings together every year as member states of the Shanghai Cooperation.

Ask them why they consider Kazakhstan to be an enemy while the government announces that these two countries are friendly neighbors? Why don’t they close the border altogether, instead of building railways through Alashankou? Why did they build the gas pipeline? Explain these things to the illiterate Han officials, the ones at the lower local level who cannot even write their own names. Show them that you’re educated.

Z: They don’t let me talk. I’ve told them that there are diplomatic agreements between the two countries that allow visiting one’s relatives, or to go to either country in urgent situations. I’ve asked them why they were not observing them. But I’m not allowed to talk about foreign countries, so it’s impossible to say things like that. They don’t listen to you.

S: Got it.

Z: I know well the relations between the two countries, and in which fields. But even mentioning the word “waijiao” (外交, “diplomacy”) makes them angry.

S: Well, Zhanar… Take care. Be strong. Be brave. Text me at any time and I will call you.

Z: Okay.

S: Write down my phone number in a secret place. They might delete it from your phone.

Z: Got it.

S: Delete the messages you have sent to me.

Z: They’re monitoring it anyway. They can see everything. Okay then. Thank you. Take care.

S: See you in better times.

Conversation with Rune Steenberg

Zhanargul Zhumatai (Z): Hello?

Rune Steenberg (R): Hello, how are you? Are you Zhanargul?

Z: Hello? Who is this?

R: My name is Yusupjan. I’m Serikzhan Bilash’s friend.

Z: Okay.

R: Do you speak Uyghur?

Z: I prefer Kazakh.

R: I don’t speak good Kazakh. I’m Danish, and I’m calling you from Europe. From Germany. I am a researcher. I speak Uyghur and decent Chinese, though not as good as Uyghur. I understand some Kazakh, but I am not able to speak it.

Z: Okay.

R: I have heard your story.

Z: They said that because I spoke to him [Serikzhan], the police will come for me. They will come to arrest me. That is what I was told just now.

R: Yes, that’s what I heard. Are they coming today?

Z: Yes. No later than tonight, they told me. We will come for you today, they said, and arrest you because – what was it that they said? – because you have spoken to people abroad on the phone and told [state] secrets. If you want to save yourself, then from today – from this evening – you should go and commit yourself to a psychiatric ward, an insane asylum. Tell them that you have lost your mind and stay there for some time. My family here asked me if I am going to do that. If I’ll go and stay at a hospital. They recommended that I follow this advice, but I said that no, I’m not going to go. Whatever happens, I will go with the authorities if they come.

I didn’t share any state secrets. I don’t even work at a place that has such secrets. I’m not even a Party member.

R: I understand.

Z: I have just been minding my own business, doing my own things, doing my job and doing it well. I have received awards for my work. And it’s someone like me that the Urumqi police come to threaten. They came to my home.

R: Are you at home now?

Z: Yes, I’m at home now. They told me that they would come to arrest me by tonight. My relatives have been pleading with me, telling me to go stay at the hospital. But I refuse. Why should I go? If they want to come and arrest me, they can come.

R: Can you give us your address?

Z: For someone from Xinjiang or for someone abroad?

R: For someone abroad.

Z: Okay. I live at Apt. 202, Entrance No. 1, Building No. 11, 59 Cangfanggou Road, Saybagh District, Urumqi.

R: Okay.

Z: This is my mother’s place. Have you seen my video? Many people around the world may have seen it. Where they pull me out. There is also audio where they say that they will take us away and we scream for help. I have passed this on. So now they call me crazy and say that I’ve lost it. When Serikzhan called me, I told him that no matter what they did to me – no matter if they make me disabled, if they sexually assault me, if they lock me up, or even if they kill me – I will tell what has happened.

R: Yes, that’s good. Hopefully it will not go that far. We can write and pass on your story. That will hopefully do some good. I saw your interview with Serikzhan, but my Kazakh is too bad to really understand it. Would you be willing to give a sketch of what happened to you in Uyghur now?

Z: No, sorry. I went to a Chinese school and I studied a bit with Uyghurs, so I know some, but I cannot adequately express myself in Uyghur. I have told my story in Kazakh and in Chinese. Where did you say you worked?

R: I work at a university. I’m a researcher. I studied the Uyghurs and Xinjiang for more than 10 years, and I wrote my PhD on Uyghurs in Kashgar and their marriage traditions. I lived there for 2 years and learned Uyghur there. I’m Danish myself, not Uyghur. And since 2014, several of my friends have also been detained. Since 2016, I have no longer been able to go there. I haven’t received a visa. But I have worked with Xinjiang diaspora in Kazakhstan, Turkey, and elsewhere. That is also how I know Serikzhan. I have written about the situation in Xinjiang in journals, and also a bit in newspapers.

Z: What is your name?

R: My Danish name is Rune Steenberg. In Uyghur, they call me “Yusupjan”.

Z: Okay, let me explain something to you. I am not here to share government secrets or to tarnish the government’s image internationally. My words are heard by the world, but they – here [the Chinese authorities] – also continue to listen. I am just talking about my own suffering and the vileness of the local Urumqi government. The bad things that they did. That is all I’ve talked about. That is what I have said.

I went to study and returned, and I was not able to save myself from this. I have sent you everything regarding the work that I have done here. Now what will happen to me? Are they going to take me away? Will they imprison me? Torture me? You can hear now that I am clearheaded, and that there is nothing wrong with my reasoning.

R: Yes, I sense that!

Z: I speak clearly and well.

R: Yes, you do!

Z: I haven’t said anything else. Now we will see what happens. There is nothing that I can do to prevent them from doing what they need to do. But if I disappear or if I die, I want the world to hold them responsible. To ask what happened to me, to know that I didn’t die a natural death. Many people should know about this, about what has happened to me. The world should know!

R: Of course. We will tell your story, and we will pass on what you said. You are right – we need to say and write about what has really happened. Not more and not less. We will pass your story on to the world. Hopefully nothing will happen to you, and in the case you are detained again we will hold them responsible.

Z: Please write down my family’s phone number. In case they take me away, you will be able to hear about it from my relatives.

R: Okay.

Z [to her relatives]: Give me your number. Your phone number. In case I disappear, you can tell him.

I will give you my mother’s number.

R: Okay.

Z: [+86] 18290801773. This is my mother’s number. Her name is Nurqaisha. After they come to take me, my relatives will not be able to go and talk to me. They won’t be able to find me. If they take me, I’ll be gone. But I will not go to the psychiatric ward! I told the truth, what had really happened. What I experienced myself. Even if they lock me up, rape me, kill me. I have experienced it before. I’ve already seen all but death.

What is to come, I will see. But the people of the world, the international organizations, and the UN Human Rights Commissioner should know. They should come and inspect what is happening to me. They should come and help me! They should come and see, and if I am killed they should show the world how they killed me. I will never be someone who takes back what they said out of fear! I am someone who thinks of the consequences before they speak.

R: I understand. I will pass on what you have said to the UN, to Western embassies in Beijing, and to journalists. If possible, someone will come to check on you.

Z: Okay. If I don’t die, if I am not made disabled, and if I don’t go crazy, I will be here.

R: If there is anything else you want to say, you can tell me now and I will pass it on.

Z: Thank you. I have told my story. I have talked about everything that has happened to me, what I have seen, what I know. Those are the things. That is enough, I think. I have sent one video to him [Serikzhan Bilash] that demonstrates very well what I have experienced and seen. The UN and others can get it from him, to watch and listen to it. And then they can come to check where I was taken, what happened to me, if they made me disabled, and if they drove me insane, locked me up, or killed me. I don’t know what will happen to me.

R: Okay. We will do this. Are you healthy right now?

Z: I have a heart problem. Once my heart starts beating strongly, I cannot calm it down. I haven’t been able to get rid of this.

R: I see. Is this something that appeared after you had been to camp?

Z: Yes, that is something that came after. My heart problems only started in the past few years. Especially over the past half-year.

R: I see. Otherwise, you are healthy. Also, your mind is clear, and your reasoning is good. I can hear and sense that, and I have recorded it now. I will translate it and pass it on to the UN.

Z: Thank you. Yes, please pass it on to the UN. Pass it on. I ask for help. I ask for help from the international community, from the UN.

R: Okay. I will pass it on and hopefully help will come. Also, if you agree, I will call you again tomorrow. If you are at home tomorrow, we will talk. If not, I will talk to your mother.

Z: Okay. If I’m at home. If possible, someone should come to our home to check on me. I will be here. If I’m not here, it is because they have taken me away. Then the UN can go and check which prison they have taken me to. Let them come looking for me. Let them come help me, please!

I’m at my mother’s. You have her number. Initially, I did not want to trouble her or trouble anybody, as my mother is 70 years old. But if they take me away, this is how you can find me.

R: I see. If someone is able to come to Urumqi to look for you, how would they get in? Can they access the building?

Z: I’m not sure. My mother says that they should call her when they get to the address.

R: Okay. Thank you! I wish you all the best of luck! We’ll stay in touch. Goodbye.

Z: Okay. Bye!

Interview with Radio Taiwan International

Yang Sen-hong (Y): Today’s interview features Mr. Serikzhan, the founder of the human rights organization “Atajurt” in Kazakhstan. Starting from 2016 and 2017, there have been constant reports of China setting up large-scale re-education camps in Xinjiang, where they forcibly detain Uyghur, Kazakh, and other Muslim ethnic minorities. The human rights situation in Xinjiang has ended up garnering a high level of consistent attention in the West, leading to corresponding sanction measures. These included Western political figures boycotting the Winter Olympics held in Beijing early last year. Over the years, the Chinese government has obstinately denied the existence of so-called “forced detention”, instead calling these places “study classes” or “vocational training centers”. However, many victims who have escaped allege that they were subjected to forced labor and torture. There have even been reports of women being raped. Most of these allegations were only made public after the individuals had fled abroad.

Zhanargul Zhumatai, a Kazakh woman living in Urumqi, Xinjiang, recently wrote to a well-known public figure in Kazakhstan to ask for help. In her letter, Zhanargul said that she had been held at one of the so-called “study centers” in China for 2 years and 23 days, starting from September 26, 2017, which were actually the No. 2 Prison and No. 3 Prison in Urumqi.

She was only released on October 18, 2019. Previously, she had worked for the National Television of Kazakhstan. Zhanargul said that among the allegations made against her by the Xinjiang authorities was that she had Facebook and Instagram installed on her mobile phone. But those had been pre-installed when she bought it in Kazakhstan.

However, given the powerful intimidation of the Chinese authorities, Zhanargul is the only victim within China who dares to publicly state that she was a victim of the re-education camps. The police didn’t wait long to come to Zhanargul’s family and threaten her with confinement in a psychiatric hospital. After that, her phone was always unreachable, making it very difficult for the outside world to contact her. On today’s program, Mr. Serikzhan, who lives in exile in the United States, is with us. Serikzhan has been in contact with Zhanargul, and we will invite him to tell us more about the situation.

On today’s program, we are going to connect to Mr. Serikzhan, the founder of Atajurt, now living in exile in the United States.

Serikzhan, are you online?

Serikzhan (S): Hello, Mr. Yang.

Y: First of all, thank you, Serikzhan, for agreeing to this interview. It seems that Mr. Serikzhan is also going to put us through to Ms. Zhanargul Zhumatai, for a joint interview. Is that right?

S: Ms. Zhanargul is with us through my second mobile phone.

Y: Would you please say hi to the audience, Ms. Zhanargul?

Zhanargul (Z): Hello.

Y: Ms. Zhumatai, your letter is very much in the spotlight. Could you discuss the circumstances of the letter you’ve written?

Z: The reason is that the Urumqi County government had engaged in long-term corruption, misappropriating the funds for resettlement and grassland compensation, which should have gone to the people. They failed to follow the legal procedures in acquiring grasslands from herdsmen. They failed to meet the proper compensation standards in distributing compensation and resettlement benefits.

That was the reason – following appeals and requests from the people and elderly in our village – why I represented 32 households in reporting the situation to the relevant autonomous region authorities. Our main concern was that, while the general prices were constantly going up, the compensation for their pastures and the resettlement subsidies had not gone up at all.

So, we asked that the Autonomous Region Government, Autonomous Region CPPCC, Autonomous Region People’s Congress, Autonomous Region People’s Court, Autonomous Region Development and Reform Commission, Department of Finance, Autonomous Region [unclear] Department, Department of Land Resources, and Grasslands Office all do a thorough review of the three policy documents that govern compensation for grassland acquisition: documents No. 1999-3, No. 1138, and No. 500.

Three of us wrote a petition letter to the abovementioned agencies about this. They then issued a document to raise the compensation standards, in consideration of documents No. 1999-3 and No. 1138.

In the end, the local government did not follow through on the new standards. They [unintelligible] their profits by 1% to 10%, and kept the rest.

Since I was the leader in drafting this letter, they formed a grudge against me. They used the stability-maintenance policies, or rather misused them, to lock me up in a study class. And they used all kinds of prevention-and-control policies to pressure me, cause me trouble, and torment me in all aspects of life, wherever I went. In doing this, they even mobilized the police, including the public security bureau, the neighborhood administration, the political and legal affairs commission, and the procuratorate, to exert pressure on me. They limited where I could go. They prevented me from working and from going out. They denied me a passport. They didn’t allow me to transfer my household registration to inner China.

They would go out of the way to give me a hard time in ways as petty as a grain. I couldn’t go to the hospital or see a doctor. I couldn’t process my paperwork at the business administration or the tax bureau. I could not even handle my taxes! I was unable to do anything.

Y: So, Ms. Zhanargul Zhumatai, you were locked up at a study camp in Xinjiang for over two years, is that right?

Z: 2 years and 23 days. This includes my time in the No. 3 Pre-Trial Detention Center, the No. 2 Pre-Trial Detention Center, the Dabancheng Transformation-Through-Education Center, and the Midong District Industrial Park and the [unintelligible] Business District Industrial Park, which was a reform-through-labor facility at the end. This period lasted from September 26, 2017 to October 18, 2019. It was 2 years and 23 days.

Y: Was your detention during those 2 years and 23 days equivalent to being held in a prison?

Z: While they are called different names – pre-trial detention centers, transformation-through-education centers, and then industrial parks – all of these places have strict discipline enforced, and you don’t have any personal freedom. I can’t speak for others, but this is my experience. I did not have any freedom. I was also not allowed to speak.

When I told the teacher that I wanted to see a doctor, the reply I got was that I was not in a position to want things. In the end, all I could say was: “I’m so sick, I’m about to die. Can you give me some medicine or take me to the hospital?” That’s how I had to express it. I can’t speak for others. I’m only speaking for myself. This is how I was tormented.

Also, while at the study class, under the pretext of treating my illness, they used syringes and prescribed medications, which caused diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, and fever. This happened a few times.

Since I came back, they have been giving me a hard time in every possible way, trying to intimidate and threaten me. As a result, I wrote to the central National Public Complaints and Proposals Administration. Then neighborhood administration people came – Chairperson Hu of the Tianshan Jiancai Neighborhood in Urumqi’s Saybagh District came with police officers. They broke into my home and grabbed my keys, my cell phone, and my ID card. I was forcibly taken to the Aixin Hospital, which is actually a psychiatric hospital, and also to a “Civilization School”. That’s to say, a study class.

And then I relied on my family members to directly confront them. So they directly dealt with them, in the confrontation. How to put this… It was thanks to them that I wasn’t taken away again. Things like that.

I can’t go out under such circumstances. Whenever I went out, I would get food poisoning. Whenever I went out to a mall or a market or anywhere, all the police and security guards would come at me. Because I have this kind of “alert” on me. I’m in their “alert system”, and whenever they see me, they understand who I am and show up to check. This longstanding hostility has been really bad for my health. My health now, it’s my heart [sigh]. So on and so forth. I can’t explain it to you clearly right now in such a short time. But that’s roughly the situation.

Since September 26, 2017, I haven’t had any freedom and haven’t been treated like a human being. I have lived the life of a dog. Sometimes, worse than that of a dog. The neighborhood administration can show up and bully me whenever they want. The police can also come over and threaten me at any time. They are either police from the Cangfanggou Police Station, Pingdingshan, or Urumqi County. Not to mention the neighborhood police here, [sigh]. This is how my days go by.

Y: So, you’re not feeling well now. Can you go to the hospital?

Z: As soon as I go in and register, they immediately identify me and tamper with things there. As a result, I wasn’t able to seek medical treatment for a long time. I have to take one and a half tablets of Euthyrox every day now. When my thyroid condition was first discovered [unintelligible]. This is what it is like. That’s why when I went to the hospital, I wouldn’t scan the ticket on my mobile phone. Instead, I’d insert 1 yuan in cash. When I went there, I’d avoid doing certain things. I wouldn’t use my mobile phone when registering. I also wouldn’t use my mobile phone when paying. I thought I could avoid them this way. But there weren’t many times when I could actually avoid them. I just got by like this.

If I were to go to inner China, they would be very sensitive to that, with Beijing especially. I once went to Beijing on December 16, 2020. They were extremely anxious that time. They came to my home and threatened my family members. They even said: “Zhanargul has repeatedly applied to us to address her difficulties and demands. Has she gone to Beijing now? Tell her to come back quickly, and we will resolve them for her.”

But the moment I came back, they tracked me down and threatened me, asking me sternly: “What did you do?” and “Whom did you contact?” Apart from that, I haven’t seen anyone trying to help me address my difficulties or solve my problems. Since then, my situation has only gotten worse and worse.

They wanted to arrest me, using all kinds of entrapment tactics. They even tried to make me fall ill. After causing me to develop a fever, they sent me to a makeshift hospital. So on and so forth.

And there’s more. They added my face to their alert system. Wherever I went, they would check me, which made me extremely upset and agitated. And they would use my agitation as a pretext to take me away to facilities like the Aixin Hospital or the Civilization School.

They set up traps for me, so I stayed home and didn’t go out to avoid these traps. This started in August, or July, of 2021. I was only able to venture out in 2022.

When it came to shopping, I could only go out to buy groceries. Everything else, such as clothes and everyday necessities, I’d purchase online. Sometimes, the things bought online were good. Other times, they were not. Some of the clothes I bought I could wear. Others, I couldn’t. This is my life now.

During these six years, I haven’t earned a single cent. I haven’t had any source of income. Nothing… And the government has only put pressure on me, made things difficult for me, and tormented me. The government has not been helpful in any way. It was only my family who sent me food. Whenever I needed to buy medicine or pay for something, it was them who covered my expenses. That’s how I’ve made it through.

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